Thursday, October 1

October 1st Demo in Jaffa


Shawna said...

don't you think it's at all worrisome when protesters with israeli citizenship wave the flags of another country over their own? don't you think it invalidates their protest a little bit since it invalidates their intent?

yudit said...

Palestinian citizens living in Israel are Palestinians...
Using your logic American Jews should under no condition wave an Israeli flag.

Shawna said...

actually that's completely wrong. you've just made an attribution error.

let me simplify:

1.anyone who identifies as "palestinian" but lives in Israel proper must have israeli citizenship. If someone holds israeli citizenship then the are for all intents and purposes Israeli themselves.

2. It's not possible at this moment to hold dual palestinian and israeli citizenship.

3. Israeli's waving the palestinian flag in Israel at a rally like yesterdays, are mostly waving it because they believe that Israel should be a palestinian state and that Israel should be defeated despite their Israeli citizenship.

4. American jews wave israeli flags out of support for Israel, not to claim that the U.S. should be defeated by Israel.

5. American jews who are not israeli do not claim to be israeli and do not deny their american citizenship.

Therein exists a few essential differences in logic.

yudit said...

It's rather sad you deny Palestinians with israeli citizenship their ethnicity. Would you dare doing so the Israeli or American Jews or is it special treatment applying only to Palestinians?
People have a right to define themselves as Palestinians, also when they are Israeli citizens.

Actually yes there are people who hold both passports, among them Daniel Barenboim :)

I think you confuse ethnicity and citizenship, which happen to be rather different categories.

If an American Jew feels the need to express support for Israel by waving an Israeli flag does thatr make him a second rate American? If not, why should an Israeli Palestinian not wave a Palestinian flag?

Shawna said...

Daniel Barenboim holds honorary citizenship. You really think one honorary citizenship makes dual citizenship a reality?

It's more about identity. It's not possible to identify as both israeli and palestinian from both a nationalistic and ethnic standpoint at this stage. It is however,possible to identify as arab and israeli and that segment of our society should be appreciated.

Shawna said...

I don't at all deny anyone their ethnicity, but insist that some loyalty to nationality exists.

yudit said...

Funny (or sad) how you refuse to recognize the Palestinian IDENTIY of the Palestinians in Israel. Identity goes way beyond passports and formalities. It's a profound feeling. When a critical mass of Israelis with Palestinian identity (zehut, not necessarily teudat zehut) FEEL they are Palestinians, they are... Nothing YOU can do about that.

And if as such they feel they want to wave the Palestinian flag, that's their good right and i think we should respect their freedom of expression. Why should they wave the Israeli flag, which doesn't symbolize them at all?

Anonymous said...

Point 3 and 4 from Shawnas second post is rather grim. That assumes that palestinians is "bloodthirsty" while jewish people is the "peace loving".

And then talk av about logic.

yudit said...

It appears logic nor fairness are strong sides of Shawna.

Shawna said...

puleeze yudit. This isn't a matter of logic or of fairness. Nor is it an evaluation of anyones failure in the logic and reasoning department. If you can't follow a line of logic it's irrelevant anyway. I'm not going to lecture you in political philosophy.

There's no grimness or implied character traits in any statement. We live in a time of hope where stereotypes are empty and only the truth is salient.

This is just a matter of mutual respect.

If someone accepts israeli citizenship then they should be prepared to be loyal to the state and in return the state should provide them with full rights and freedoms of any other citizen.
If someone chooses to deny israel's right to exist and still take advantage of all the rights and freedoms then I'd say it's beyond unfair, it's wholeheartedly disrespectful.

It's a choice.

yudit said...

"If someone accepts Israeli citizenship". Now that's the joke of the year.
The Palestinians are the ORIGINAL inhabitants of this area and Israeli citizenship was FORCED upon them.
More than that' they are second class citizens who are heavily discriminated against.

"Loyalty" is a feeling and feelings cannot be forced. However, when people are treated with more respect and sensitivity, that felling might develop.
When they have to face daily disrcrimination on a grand scale (you might want to read the report of the Or Commission) it is doubtful people will feel loyal.

Anonymous said...

If we take the point on accepting citizenship, what choice did the palestinians, armenians and other minorities have? Accepting is easy when there is noe other choice.

Cause what is the choice then? Leaving the area that the familiy have lived on for generations? People wont do that if the situation doesnt become extreme.

And in all this, its vital to remember who is the powerful. The state.

Just my thought. Still amused over point 3 and 4 above.